Daily Kos

Tag: Telecom Immunity

Dems to Carry AT&T Logo In Denver

Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:50:05 AM PDT

With the sting of telecom immunity still in my mind, this was the first thing I heard on yesterday's Democracy Now broadcast.  As a progressive, I am very concerned with the continued direction of my party's leaders, including Senator Obama.  After hearing yesterday that Obama was not in support of investigating the Bush administration for illegal activities, I went to the Green Party website and signed a petition to allow it to be on this November's NC ballot.

If a Democratic president were to do what Bush has done, that Democrat and his minions would already be swinging from a rope.

When are the Democrats going to stand for something other than big interest money?

The only time we "regular" people get even a small influence is during elections.  I won't vote for a candidate that doesn't reflect my value that the Constitution and our nations laws mean something. Nobody, including the President, is above the law.

Poll

In a Corrupt Political Climate, What is the best way to promote progressive values?

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Oh no! Another FISA diary!

Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:32:23 AM PDT

First:  This is, more or less, a defense of Senator Obama's ultimate position on FISA, even though I disagree with it.  Yes, the world is a very complicated place.

Second:  A warning.  I'm not doing any research here.  I'm a very, very lazy man.  I could link to documents, quotes, news reports, other blogs, etc, but I won't.

Third:  I waited until heads cooled a little bit before I put this up for a reason.

Fourth:  This is long and rambling.  Key parts bolded for those as lazy as me, so they don't have to read the whole thing.

Okeydoke.  Actual content "after the jump."  I promise.

It is time to hold Dianne Feinstein accountable once again

Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 04:40:13 PM PDT

Back in November of 2007, Democratic activists in the California Democratic Party, aided by our friends at the Courage Campaign, drew up a resoution to Censure Senator Dianne Feinstein for her repeated enabling of the Bush agenda.  This particular outcry was created by Senator Feinstein's swing vote on the Senate Judiciary Committee that allowed for the confirmation of our torture-loving Attorney General Bob Mukasey.

The Courage Campaign collected 33,000 signatures supporting a resolution to censure Dianne Feinstein for her pro-Bush votes.  Needless to say, the efforts of those who actually support and defend the Constitution were met with great howls of execration by the serious people in the California Democratic Party.

But now that Senator Feinstein has once again sold the Constitution down the river by voting against removing telecom immunity from the FISA bill, it's time to ask: should the effort to censure Senator Feinstein be revived?

The Courage Campaign would like to know.  More below the fold.

Good News (sortta) on FISA

Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 07:51:25 PM PDT

Like most here at our Dkos community I was furious over the passage of the FISA bill and telecom immunity and the way this capitulation was billed as a compromise. Well today I read two pieces of news about the ongoing battle against immunity and the current form of the FISA bill which made me feel (slightly) better: EFF and the ACLU will be fighting on going legal battles attempting to address he unconstitutional nature of the FISA bill.

Below the jump are two quick snips of this news to tuck you in for the evening....

Poll

Feel a little better?

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WaPo wins the prize for the stupidest article of the Bush era

Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 07:39:27 PM PDT

There have been a lot of incidents of appallingly bad journalism over the past eight years: those relentlessly focused on trivialities, stories inventing fake scandals out of whole cloth, the ones amplifying Bush lies and cheerleading for war.  Yet for some reason, this story by Dan Eggen and Paul Kane in Sunday's Washington Post strikes me as the most unbelievable, factually incorrect and just plain stupidest article of the Bush era.

Headline:

Recent Political Wins Smell of Compromise

Lately, President Employs a Little-Used Tool

I don't know if you're aware of it, but getting full immunity for lawbreaking, expanded unchecked surveillance powers, and no-strings funding for endless war in Iraq is the result of compromise!

My own "Flip Flop" on Obama

Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 03:03:40 PM PDT

Looking at my past postings on Daily Kos there are far too many times when I have ridden the wave of emotion to intellectual oblivion. This was no different when it came to Obama's FISA vote. Some time has passed and the musings of rational thought have managed to creep back into my head. I was advocating "cutting the funds" to the Obama campaign and even the notion of writing a candidate in come November. It is obvious these are grave mistakes if too many people were to go this route. While Obama's FISA vote is inexcusable at best, like myself, he is far from a perfect man. It only took seconds for me to think of a McCain victory to realize the true tragedy this nation faces should the so-called "straight talk" express be parked at the White House on inauguration day.

Lemme Tell Ya Bout Bad Votes: Obama/FISA

Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:20:00 PM PDT

So, I Got This Bumper Sticker from MoveOn.Org that is a nice pretty shade of blue that even matches my car.

It says "Obama '08," and it was free!

Dartboard or car?  Dartboard or car?

Quandary.

(BTW, nice move Hillary.)

My less than heartfelt answer is continued support for Barack Obama, and I'll slap the dart-hole free sticker on the car.

Why?  Read on.

Old Style Politics by Obama OK and Inevitable

Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 11:58:14 AM PDT

Many bloggers and pundits quickly jump all over any statement or move by Obama that smells of old style politics and some gleefully point out that it makes him seem a hipocrite for his prominently stated intention to change Washington to a new style of politics.  Their argument springs from the idea, I suppose, that Obama should exclusively practice his new brand of politics despite the fact that he is seeking office in a world still operatiing under the old rules.  

It's time to debunk this preposterous assumption.  Consider that just because Obama wants to change politics into a different game, it doesn't mean he does'nt know how to play the old game still in progress.  

To be sure, Obama does run his campaign in different ways than traditionally our candidates have done.  His stand on PACS and lobbyist money and his extention of it to the DNC feature in this.  His consistency in denouncing ad hominem attacks against McCain do so as well.  

ACLU Suing Over FISA

Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 04:57:17 PM PDT

Just recieved an email from the ACLU saying they will be suing as soon as Bush signs this bill..

FISA Immunity – a Taking of Property without compensation?

Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:36:54 AM PDT

I admit that among the Constitutional issues which come to mind when discussing the new FISA Bill, many are of greater significance than the one I am about to discuss; but I want to draw attention to one more potential constitutional violation – namely that this bill constitutes a taking of property without compensation in violation of the Fifth Amendment.  Before I begin, I will admit that my argument is not a slam-dunk winner and will require an expansive view of the takings clause; that having been said, I think a good case can be made – and considering how reverently the takings clause is seen by conservative judges and justices, it could at least make them put their money where their mouth is.

Filibuster the FISA Bill Action Diary

Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 04:28:04 AM PDT

Update: FISA abomination passed the US senate. The rollcall can be found here.
~~~~~

Original diary follows:

In a few hours from now, at about 11:30 ET today, the US Senate will start voting on the FISA amendments bill H.R. 6304.

Let's make one last effort to stop this bill from passing.

Poll

Are you callin', faxin' and emailin'?

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FISA: Civil, Criminal & Administrative Immunity

Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:17:54 PM PDT

If this FISA bill is passed in the Senate, then Bush & the telecoms may reap a trifecta of retroactive or prospective immunities: civil, criminal and administrative.  In addition to a telecom's retroactive civil immunity, this bill may also provide Bush with a colorable argument of civil and criminal immunity.  

A colorable argument means that if a criminal prosecution or Congressional investigation is commenced, then Bush may present the appearance of a valid legal argument sufficient to prevent dismissal as wholly insubstantial or frivolous claims lacking merit on the facts or legal foundation. The colorable argument does not mean ultimate success, but would afford Bush the delay he needs to string out litigation for years to prevent accountability.

An amendment which strikes out 6 words may eliminate this colorable argument.

CO Kossacks- Read this ACTION diary!

Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:20:25 PM PDT

We need you to call Renny Fagan at Senator Salazar's Denver office as follow-up to our meeting to discuss FISA!

We talked about

Unjustified Grant of Retroactive Immunity

Lengthy Sunset

Little Protection Against Reverse Targeting

No Prohibition on Bulk Collection

Loophole for Advance Judicial Approval of Court Orders

No Limits on Use of Illegally Obtained Information

Few Protections for People in the United States

Poll

Will you/did you call Mr. Fagan at Senator Salazar's CO office?

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No Retroactive Immunity for Telecoms!

Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 05:20:27 PM PDT

I, like many others of my generation, still have the letters we received as kids, letters from our relatives in Germany.  Each envelope bears the censor’s swastika stamp of approval.  Each one opened and resealed.  

I have seen it before, and now I am seeing it again: a government that spies on its own citizens, censors and approves their mail, and changes the law to make legal what was formerly illegal.  At the time, we all sat here in America, wondering how our relatives back in Germany could have ever let this happen to them.  How did they loose their rights and their freedom?

2 Real FISA Compromise Amendments

Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 11:29:07 AM PDT

Below are 2 ideas for amendments that our congress should debate before capitalizing on the terrible legislation which is FISA.  The amendments below are what I feel is the compromised position that is likely to pass.  I have also added the reasoning behind the amendments and some extra points that I would like to see put in them.  

I would like to see the works gummed up as much as possible so am also recommending that congress debate variations of these amendments.  This will help determine exactly were each member stands and how far they are willing to go.  With the added benefit of keeping discussion open as long as possible.

Follow me below the fold.

I have a solution to Obama's FISA problem

Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 05:55:06 PM PDT

Let's put the so-called nuance aside for a minute regarding the debate on the FISA compromise bill (so-called). Obama and others who oppose this weakening of our checks and balances shouldn't vote. Not for it, not against. Not at all.

Telecom Immunity Sucks, but There's a Loophole

Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 03:29:34 PM PDT

I utterly oppose granting immunity of any kind to ANYONE who participated in illegally wiretapping American citizens, no matter who told them it was legal or how much they were paid, and consider anyone who goes along with granting it a fucking coward.

Nothing new there, I've said that all before. There IS, however, a possible small bright spot in the abortion that is the FISA Amendment Act.

The text of the relevant Section across the jump...

Betting it all on criminal wiretapping prosecutions.

Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 01:25:05 PM PDT

Rep. Mark Udall, running for Senate in Colorado, is among the House Dems who recently voted for the FISA bill.

That by itself isn't particularly remarkable. It's symptomatic of running for higher office, just as the votes of Bob Menendez and Sherrod Brown for the heinous Military Commissions Act was. They both voted for it, and almost immediately after winning announced how deeply they regretted it and that they'd be working to repeal it as soon as possible.

The MCA, of course, remains on the books. Its repeal never stood a chance so long as George W. Bush held his veto crayon. And both Brown and Menendez knew that when they said it.

But that's (political) life. It is what it is, and we say so out loud even though it's one of those dirty-but-open little secrets that Serious PeopleTM don't talk about. Actually, that's probably why we say so out loud.

So now Mark Udall finds himself in the same position. And just as Brown and Menendez bet it all on their promises to repeal, Udall now bets it all on committing the next administration -- yet to be elected, by the way -- to extensive criminal investigations penetrating into the very heart of years and years of executive operations.

Well, he's not really betting it all on it. There are literally hundreds of other critical issues and as many equally critical reasons why you absolutely must vote for him if you're a Colorado voter, despite anything that could possibly be said about FISA. And he's just one of dozens of Democrats running for higher office or for reelection to their current offices in November about whom I'd say the exact same thing. But FISA and the core issues underlying it are getting the same exact same glossing over from those other candidates as we're about to read from Udall. And all of the people saying it are actually rather hoping you won't notice if they eventually pick up their chips and drop the wager entirely.

So this is not important because Mark Udall said it. Mark Udall is just the vector we have under the microscope at the moment, and just as with Menendez and Brown, we are better off by far agreeing to live with the dirty little secret and electing him. What's important is that this letter or one like it is going out to millions of concerned constituents, in hundreds of districts around the country. You may be expecting one, yourself. I think you deserve a fuller discussion of the answers you're being offered. Then I think you should go out and vote for Udall and/or your local Democrat, anyway.

But here, via email to a constituent that was shared with us, is just one example of what we get when we're silly enough to actually ask why they voted for this thing:

This bill is designed to update FISA while putting an end to abusive domestic spying, and I voted for it in order to prevent a future program of warrantless surveillance by the executive branch. The bill is explicit that complying with FISA is the only way for the government to conduct surveillance. At the same time, it updates FISA, which was originally passed in 1978, to give us important capabilities to discover and stop terrorist activities. I fully understand why there is confusion and even anger that the legislation does not do more to require some telecommunications companies to respond to lawsuits for alleged privacy abuses in their actions to implement the Bush Administration's warrantless surveillance after 9-11. But it does require a comprehensive review of that surveillance program by the Inspectors General of the Justice Department, the Directorate of National Intelligence, the National Security Agency, and the Defense Department, including a report to the Intelligence and Judiciary Committees of Congress. This will mean that past abuses by the Bush Administration will not go uninvestigated. Also, the bill does not provide absolute or criminal immunity for these companies, and no government official will receive civil or criminal immunity for past abuses.

This particular line of response is now in wide circulation, doubtless disseminated by the House Democratic Caucus to help Members deal with constituent inquiries. And it does its job well. It sounds like a nuanced and intelligent response, and in most cases is likely enough to shoo away follow-ups and lingering doubts. But it's got serious holes in it -- serious enough to render the whole thing worthless, actually -- and they deserve examination.

Regarding the claim that this bill can "prevent a future program of warrantless surveillance by the executive branch," I say you're living in a dream world:

The "administration's" lawyers -- people like John Yoo -- advised Bush that the president had the "inherent power" to ignore the FISA provisions in the name of "national security."  So he did it. Despite the existence of the exclusivity provisions.

In fact, Yoo's memo insisted that FISA's exclusivity provisions meant exactly the opposite of what they do mean:

Unless Congress made a clear statement in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that it sought to restrict presidential authority to conduct warrantless searches in the national security area -- which it has not -- then the statute must be construed to avoid [such] a reading.

Just days ago, of course, the federal court in the Al-Haramain case said Yoo did indeed have it exactly backwards:

Congress squarely challenged and explicitly sought to prohibit warrantless wiretapping by the executive branch by means of FISA, as FISA's legislative history amply documented.

Congress appears clearly to have intended to -- and did -- establish as the exclusive means for foreign intelligence surveillance activities to be conducted.

Now, we've got a new exclusivity provision that also purports to prevent the president from simply ignoring the law, and it's being presented as something new and improved, and good enough by itself to justify a vote for the bill.

But the truth of the matter, as the court's decision makes clearer than ever, is exactly as Glenn Greenwald puts it:

They're presenting as a "gift" something you already have, and telling you that you should give up critical protections in exchange for receiving something that you already have -- namely, a requirement that the President comply with eavesdropping laws. What they're doing is tantamount to someone who steals your wallet, takes all the money out, gives the empty wallet back to you, and then tells you that you should be grateful to them because you have your wallet.

There really is no way to write a law such that it prevents someone from ignoring it, of course. If you ignore the law, you ignore the provisions preventing you from ignoring it. That, it turns out, is actually what "ignoring" means.

Regarding the claim that the bill "updates FISA, which was originally passed in 1978, to give us important capabilities to discover and stop terrorist activities," it's arguably true that the bill does "update" FISA, but it is decidedly misleading to follow that up by simply stating that FISA was originally passed in 1978. If "updating" is the issue, Udall might have taken care to mention that FISA has actually been updated dozens of times over the years, and several times just since 9/11.

It might also have been helpful to explain that while some of the updates were arguably necessary (debatable, but arguable), retroactive immunity for the telecom companies is neither an update to FISA, nor a necessity. Udall might have taken the opportunity to explain that George W. Bush would not accept the updates that were arguably necessary and proper unless he also won his point on immunity, and that he had in fact threatened to veto these "important capabilities to discover and stop terrorist activities" if he didn't get his way.

Some actual grown-ups among his constituents might like to know that.

Regarding the claim that the bill will "require a comprehensive review of that surveillance program by the Inspectors General of the Justice Department, the Directorate of National Intelligence, the National Security Agency, and the Defense Department, including a report to the Intelligence and Judiciary Committees of Congress," I offer this observation shared with me via email, by emptywheel:

The IG report, by law, cannot name a private citizen or entity that participated in the warrantless wiretap program. In other words, while a lot of people are pointing to the IG investigation as a great invention of transparency (though, without the Bingaman amendment [about which, see here], we have no way to force the Administration to carry out the investigation in good faith), but the IG investigation by design will continue to shield the telecoms that broke the law in assisting the Administration.

Sounds pretty "comprehensive," eh? Can't name names. That, I think, is going to be rather important when it comes to Udall's last and most ridiculous claim, that:

This will mean that past abuses by the Bush Administration will not go uninvestigated. Also, the bill does not provide absolute or criminal immunity for these companies, and no government official will receive civil or criminal immunity for past abuses.

This last claim has already been addressed thoroughly by bmaz, writing on emptywheel's blog at Firedoglake. And the issues with it utterly destroy the point. Just a few such issues:

WHAT CRIMES? - Neither Olbermann, Dean, Obama, nor anybody else discussing this hypothetical pipe dream has indicated exactly what crimes they think might be charged. Let us be clear on one thing, simply because a proscribed activity is unconstitutional does NOT make it criminal. For a crime to be charged, there needs to be a specific provision of the US Code (USC), or other statutory provision, making said conduct a crime. It is crystal clear, from the collective record to date, that the participating telcos were compelled by the Bush Administration to assist and were given written assurances that their cooperation was necessary for national security, legal and authorized by the President of the United States in a supposed time of war. That pretty much eliminates any crime that requires criminal intent by the perpetrator, and leaves only what, in criminal law, are known as strict liability crimes, of which none come to mind. The only cogent possibility is the criminal offense defined under the FISA law (18 USC 1809) which, you guessed it, requires specific intent. How are you going to prove that here?

STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS: - Even if you could identify specific crimes to charge telcos and/or their owners, directors and personnel with, the crime must be viable and ripe for prosecution. The first question any criminal defense attorney is going to ask is "Gee, is this crime within the statute of limitations"? FISA is subject to the Federal general statute of limitation contained in 18 USC 3282, which is five years. And, remember, the statute starts to run when the crime is committed and/or when the government becomes aware of the conduct; in this case the Department of Justice knew about the conduct as, or before, it was being committed. When we, as citizens learned about it is not the relevant test. Obama, assuming he is indeed elected, will not be issuing indictments at the end of his inaugural address. The FISA Amendment Act provides for an investigation and report of the Bush/telco wiretapping/datamining and snooping to be completed by applicable Inspectors General within one year of passage; assuming Bush signs the FAA in mid-July, that would be mid-July 2009 for the report. The Bush Administration will not be working diligently to effect this while they are still in office; any meaningful work will have to be reviewed and/or performed under the new administration. It is unrealistic to expect that any charges could possibly be filed before said said report is due, so any act occurring prior to about July 15, 2004 will not be within the statute of limitations and will be barred from prosecution.

To these, I have still more to add.

  1. Why, if you believe there are or may be grounds for criminal prosecution, would you immunize against civil liability? What sense does that make, exactly? Why make life easier for people you're telling us should be or could be subject to criminal liability?
  1. Going the path in #1 says, "Don't press your rights by yourselves, Mr. or Ms. Citizen. Let the government that just finished stripping you of them take care of that for you. Maybe.
  1. Who are these Congressmen commiting the Barack Obama administration to a major criminal investigation spanning eight years of the Bush White House's most secretive and most deeply shrouded abuses as its first official act, and have any of them asked Obama where he stands on this commitment?
  1. The people promising you criminal prosecutions after '08 if you'll just shut up and trust them to read the law and take care of things after the election are the same people who promised you effective "subpoena power" after '06 if you'd just shut up and trust them to read the law and take care of things after the election.

Well, when they said it in '06, I read the law myself and saw very clearly (and dead accurately, I might add) what would happen to "subpoena power". Now we're back to trusting their reading of the law, their predictive powers, and their assumptions that Bush won't simply pardon everyone, out of some kind if pure shame, it is suggested, even though he hasn't exhibited such shame at any point in his life, much less during his "administration."

Absent the fact that Udall is hoping we'll all go away, this would be an intentionally stupid position to take at this point, 7 1/2 years into the Bush "administration." And if it weren't for the fact that we're all going to be hit with this telegraphed punch, I'd be more than happy to let those who subscribe to it take in on the chin while I laugh from ringside.

Too bad it's not that simple.


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